Thursday, April 14, 2005

A Weekly Blog

I have noticed that I tend to write one good article every week or so. To save you the bother of checking this blog every day, only to become frustrated when you notice that nothing has happened, I am now designating this a weekly blog -- check for a new posting every Monday.

51 Comments:

At 9:27 PM, Blogger Doug said...

I'd like to hear what you have to say regarding the constitutionality of the federal income tax. Specifically going into detail regarding your opinion of the work that is being done by Bob Schulz and We The People Congress. Thank you very much.

That the President's panel would ignore the Constitution of this nation, and the unalienable Rights of We the People, while reforming the single most intrusive and dangerous function of government, should give us all great pause.

http://www.givemeliberty.org

Doug Kenline
Atlanta, Georgia
http://dougkenline.blogspot.com/

 
At 6:04 PM, Blogger Alec Brandon said...

Dude, see my comment in the last post, that responded to how, philosophically the government has the power to tax people. But you are insane if you do not think the federal government has the constitutional power to levy an income tax, they passed an amendment saying they could! If you do not believe me, here is a link: http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxvi.html

-Mr. Alec

 
At 9:45 PM, Blogger Doug said...

The authority of the federal government to collect its income tax depends upon the 16th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, the federal income tax amendment, which was allegedly ratified in 1913. After a year of extensive research, Bill Benson discovered that the 16th Amendment was not ratified by the required 3/4 of the states, but nevertheless Secretary of State Philander Knox fraudulently announced ratification.

http://www.thelawthatneverwas.com

In June of 2002, Bob Schulz publicly declared he has forever stopped paying income taxes or filing income tax returns, based solely on the content of this hearing and the government's refusal to answer the well documented legal charges that there is NO legal or constitutional basis for the federal income tax.

http://www.givemeliberty.org/SUMMER/TestDrive.htm

Shortly after the amendment was (supposedly) ratified, both the Supreme Court and the Secretary of the Treasury admitted that the 16th Amendment did not give Congress any new taxing powers.

http://www.taxableincome.net/articles/othertax/16thamend.html

http://www.861.info/message.html

 
At 6:26 AM, Blogger Republican Dan said...

I'll have to wait till next week for an income tax article -- it's time to talk about the Medal of Honor.

 
At 10:09 AM, Blogger Doug said...

Thanks Dan, I'm looking foward to it.

 
At 8:32 PM, Blogger Alec Brandon said...

Well 2 seconds of research exposes Bill Benson as a crackpot. So, the deal is that four states that the Secretary of State claimed ratified the constitution did not, causing the 38 that supposedly did to drop to 34, 2 lower than the required 36.

Well my first arguement against this is purely logic. California, Kentucky, Minnesota, and Oklahoma would have gone ape shit if this had actually happened.

My second arguement is that Bill Benson does not show that California or Minnesota did not ratify the amendment. He simply says that he could find no record of it. That does not mean it was never ratified, it just means he couldn't find a record, two VERY different things. So if the Secretary of State did lie about Kentucky and Oklahoma, it would not make a difference, the 36 required states still would have signed on.

My third arguement is that if you go to the House of Representatives website, they note that after the amendment was formally ratified, New Hampshire and Massachusetts ratified it, one month later. So maybe, if Mr. Benson is right, and all four states that he claims never ratified it, leaving the number at 34, on Feburary 3, the day it was formally ratified. It would not matter, because a month later, they had 36. Then your only arguement is that the amendment shouldn't exist because it was ratified before it should have been, but give me a break. You are just cheap.

My fourth arguement has been a philosophical one that I have given a couple of times already, and is one I wish you would respond to. This is the issue of the social contract.

Those are all my arguements for now.

-Mr. Alec

PS Dan I would LOVE to see a post by you on taxes or on any economics, I am an economics major at the top econ. school in the country.

 
At 8:37 PM, Blogger Alec Brandon said...

Oh and my fifth arguement: the Supreme Court would have no vested interest in having an illegitimate amendment in the constitution. This is why we have an independent judiciary, unless you are accusing our entire early 20th century judical system of being coerced into doing something they had never done before and have not since, then I do not see how your claim is substantiated.

My last arguement is why does this matter. Either you are for a correct ratification of the income tax law, which if proposed today would be overwhelmingly supported by Congress and the people, or you are for the end of income taxes which is just stupid. How are you planning on fighting any wars, providing any entitlements, hell how would the government even fund itself? Like it or not, our nation would collapse if it did not get federal income tax revenue.

Who cares?

-Mr. Alec

 
At 10:16 PM, Blogger Doug said...

I disagree.

In June of 2002, Bob Schulz publicly declared he has forever stopped paying income taxes or filing income tax returns, based solely on the content of this hearing and the government's refusal to answer the well documented legal charges that there is NO legal or constitutional basis for the federal income tax.

http://www.givemeliberty.org/

 
At 10:22 PM, Blogger Doug said...

Shortly after the amendment was (supposedly) ratified, both the Supreme Court and the Secretary of the Treasury admitted that the 16th Amendment did not give Congress any new taxing powers.

http://www.taxableincome.net/articles/othertax/16thamend.html

 
At 3:48 PM, Blogger Alec Brandon said...

I find that last website you linked us to hilarious because it justifies not taxing income because of the "original intent" of the law. This is such bull shit. No one has any god damn clue what a legislative body has "intended" when it writes a law, all that it really intends to do is, well, write a law. The courts job is not to figure out what the intent of a law is, it is to interpret what the law says. If the law is poorly worded, we have this thing called a Congress that can change laws, or change the wording of laws.

Original intent is the biggest crock of shit, and is just as crazy and stupid as the judicial activism that conservatives attack liberal judges of using.

So if the law says, "Kick All Babies on their Shins." The judges job is not to look at that law and say,
"Well the original intent was of course to make babies stronger, because I am going to assume that, so all babies must now eat cabbage." Their job is to rule that babies must have their Shins kicked. Congress can change that accordingly. So if the constitution says we can not have a direct federal tax, and income tax is classified as indirect, that's how it goes. Maybe the founding fathers "intended" something different, maybe they did not, of course they would not have had a qualifier like direct, if they had intended it to be a blanket statement.

By the way, I gave you 6 arguements for why you and your websites are wrong. Your respone is, "Bob Schulz changed his mind once," and "I was at the constitutional convention, and I know what they REALLY meant" (which is bull shit for the above mentioned reasons).

Please respond to arguements, you are making my life far too easy.

Thank you,
Mr. Alec

 
At 7:46 PM, Blogger Doug said...

Here is my wife Joy's 2001 Federal Income Tax Return in its entirety, as well as a photo of her refund. Note that she was paid every penny withheld from her paycheck that year including Social Security and Medicare.

http://www.obstacledelusions.com/

.

 
At 9:15 PM, Blogger Alec Brandon said...

Well your wife has a sexy signature, but you actually failed to respond to every single one of my arguements. In fact all you did was include a link to some website about your wife getting a tax refund. I am very happy for you.

I have given about 8 arguements for why you are wrong. I have heard nothing in response.

I win.

-Mr. Alec

 
At 10:14 PM, Blogger Doug said...

Note that she was paid every penny withheld from her paycheck that year including Social Security and Medicare.

http://www.obstacledelusions.com/

.

 
At 10:22 PM, Blogger Doug said...

Why then, you ask, have you been paying income taxes on your earnings all these years? The answer is harsh, so take a deep breath before you read on.

Answer: You have been lied to. You have been misled. You are ignorant. You are scared. You are weak.

http://www.unlearning.org/editor60.htm

.

 
At 11:07 PM, Blogger Alec Brandon said...

Uhhhh, I pay taxes because I want to be a member of society. Because this country is the greatest one in the world, and paying for what it gives me through taxation is not something that weak people do. I will cash my Social Security checks in a couple of decades guilt free. If I lose my job, and have no means of healthcare, I will be happy to have medicare (or medicaid) there to help me. I do pay Federal Income Taxes, but turns out I am alright with that. It is what CITIZENS do.

By the way, do you pay state taxes? Are you against all taxes, or just the Federal Government having the power to tax? What is the philosophical justification for you not paying any type of taxes? Is the root of your crusade just a feeling of knowing what the original intent of the word, "direct" was?

-Mr. Alec

 
At 11:14 PM, Blogger Doug said...

The first 2/3 of the income tax is either wasted or lost. Of the remaining 1/3, every dime of income tax goes to private lenders for interest on the exponentially escalating national debt.

This fact was revealed by the Grace Commission (PPSS) in the Reagan Administration.

Not one dime goes to reduce the national debt or run our government.

The Honorable Ronald Reagan

http://www.uhuh.com/taxstuff/list-gra.htm

.

 
At 11:20 PM, Blogger Doug said...

i don't mind gasoline taxes and cigarette taxes and alchohol taxes and so forth.......my beef is with the income tax.......i'm against state income tax as well........see tennessee for example......no state income tax......my philosophy is pretty well laid out by bob schulz at givemeliberty.org.......

http://www.givemeliberty.org

i think the founding fathers had it figured out pretty good.....there was no income tax until around 1913 the way i understand it........how did the country run before there was any income tax?

if we were ok before 1913 without an income tax then i see no reason why we need to have one now......

to me it's about freedom and liberty.......i think the founding fathers would have despised the current income tax situation and the IRS.........

http://www.givemeliberty.org

.

 
At 12:01 AM, Blogger Alec Brandon said...

You are right when you mention how much of our taxes go to paying down a debt, but that is not a good thing. In fact, economically, that is an incredibly good thing.

See being in debt is not bad. Many people take out loans to go to college, that is not a bad thing. Sure you go into debt, but that investment ends up paying off with greater returns. But the Federal Government, or any government, is not a person, it will not die. It is constantly in debt, because it is constantly investing. Of course what is is investing in is a seperate matter, but one we all have say in by who we vote for.

In fact if you looked at every major corporation, they will have a deficit and always will. This is because they have loans for Research and Development. Sure the loan collection techniques are different, but just because part of your income tax (just as part of the cost of buying a new car is future R and D by GM) goes to paying off a debt which is neccesary for the nation to function competitively, does not mean it is bad to pay taxes.

Now the second issue, your beef with taxes. If you hate income taxes of all sort, whether legal or illegal (in the case of various states) why don't you leave the United States? No one is forcing you to be here?

Furthermore, your arguement about the founding fathers and how they would not like taxes. Above all the founding fathers were pragmatic, they wanted the United States to function (this is why slavery was originally allowed, an irreligious, amoral, and unenlightened move), had the founding fathers would have recognized that Income Taxes were neccesary for the development of the country they wouldn't have cared. But again, can we know this. Original intent arguements are inherently flawed because of this.

-Mr. Alec

 
At 10:26 AM, Blogger Doug said...

An arrogant, out-of-control and unaccountable government that has no respect for the precious liberties of every American citizen is destroying our sacred Bill of Rights – our Rights, Liberties and Freedoms.

The People, endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, have reached a crossroad. We will either act together to focus our spiritual and earthly energies toward solving this problem or we will languish in ambivalence and indecision until our Republic, our Constitution, our way of life and eventually our freedom are gone.

We, the People, must not allow the Constitution to become a dead letter.

We CALL on all concerned Americans to unite behind the PLAN. The hour IS late.

http://www.givemeliberty.org/NoRedress/WTPTV-01-07-03Transcript.htm

 
At 10:33 AM, Blogger Theorigamist said...

Doug said: "my philosophy is pretty well laid out by bob schulz at givemeliberty.org"

No, that's Bob Schulz's philosophy. In fact, everything you've said in this entire argument has just been quotes and links from other people. Please stop being a parrot and make your own argument.

Mr. Alec has given a long list of actual logical reasons why you're wrong, and you haven't responded except to repeat already posted quotes. Nobody cares about Bill Benson or Bob Schulz.

I'd like to request that the next post you make, you actually type things instead of just using copy and paste. Please?

 
At 2:37 PM, Blogger Doug said...

The refunds reflected in the following checks and notices include EVERYTHING-- Social Security 'contributions' and all-- which was withheld from the private-sector earnings of these upstanding Americans during the relevant years. These good folks learned the truth, and then simply, and courageously, insisted on lawful behavior from their servant government.

Total so far: $205,462.00. (Actually, this is only the total of what has been reported to me. The real figure may be much higher.)

http://www.losthorizons.com/tax/MoreVictories.htm

.

 
At 11:06 PM, Blogger Theorigamist said...

Okay, I seem to be addressing a brick wall, so I'll lay this out very simply. You're apparently trying to support some proposition. In engaging in an argument, you have proposed something, Mr. Alec has refuted it, and you, hypothetically, should then address his points. I'm not actually sure if you've given a valid starting proposition, but the thing that you said that most closely resembles a proposition would be paraphrased as: "federal income taxes are unconstitutional."

Please ignore all this stupid bullshit about people having their taxes refunded, or Bob Schulz not paying his taxes. These are not arguments that support your proposition. These are useless.

The only potentially valid argument you've made in support of your starting proposition is that the sixteenth amendment might not have been properly ratified. Mr. Alec very clearly refuted that. Nothing else you have said has been at all relevant or important. You've just been repeating yourself and making yourself look like stupid.

If all you can do is give bullshit quotes from bullshit sources, then please don't bother to respond. If you have an actual argument to make, I'd love to hear it.

 
At 9:33 AM, Blogger Doug said...

In June of 2002, Bob Schulz publicly declared he has forever stopped paying income taxes or filing income tax returns, based solely on the content of this hearing and the government's refusal to answer the well documented legal charges that there is NO legal or constitutional basis for the federal income tax.

http://www.givemeliberty.org

.

 
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